[Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

Russ K2TXB k2txb at dxcc.com
Sun Aug 17 18:20:30 CEST 2014


Lars, yes and no.  432 is quite bad much of the time at K2UYH, 1296 not so
much.  And we do prefer to work CW on those bands, but use WSJT for
additional contest contacts.

 

73, Russ K2TXB

 

From: Lars Pettersson [mailto:sm4ive at telia.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 11:59 AM
To: Russ K2TXB; moon at moonbounce.info
Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

 

Russ
i will make it a short comment :-)
I suppose you have the same noise level on 70 cm and 23 cm since many of you
prefere WSJT on these bands aswell.
Have a nice sunday
Btw i was on 70 cm  briefly this morning   heard K2UYH N4GJV    both S7
and OZ4MM S8-9
Lars 
 

Russ K2TXB skrev 2014-08-17 17:18:

*  when i started with 4 yagis 1980 i worked several 4 yagis stations, i
even worked  one  single yagi station.




Hello Lars.  Of course you could do that in 1980.  So did I.  Try it today
with the noise levels we now have to put up with.  I get on for some of the
CW activity periods.  I can copy a few of the big gun stations, but they
cannot hear me.  Why?  I can work WJST so my TX is getting out.  There are
only 2 possible reasons.  Either they have higher noise levels than I do, or
else they are running a lot more power that I can.  And, I know many are
running more power than I am allowed.  Either way, there are only a handful
of stations I can copy.  How does struggling with the noise for 4 hours to
make one contact (maybe) equal more fun than working many stations in the
same time period on a digital mode?

 

I like working CW EME. I do it all the time when operating the contest at
K2UYH.  But I get just as much satisfaction out of working digital contacts
with a marginal station.  The thrill of making a difficult or rare contact
is just as great - I still did it using my own station and skills that I put
together in my own way or learned in my own fashion.  Learning the skills to
really make WSJT play well is not a meaningless achievement.  For example;
The local power company has installed solar panels on all of the utility
poles in this entire area.  During sunny days they radiate a clicking sound
on 2 meters.  Apparently they charge up a capacitor and then discharge into
the mains when the voltage gets high enough.  Under a weak Sun I hear a slow
click-click-click.  As the sun increases the repetition rate increases until
it becomes a screaming whistle in my receiver.  No matter where I point my
antenna I can hear it because the darn things are everywhere.  Fortunately
they seem to produce this noise in bands of frequencies separated by about
15 KHz.  So they cover the band but I can operate between them.  When tuned
to one of them the waterfall display shows hundreds of vertical traces, each
separated by no more than 20-50 Hz.  When a station I want to work is
operating in one of those areas, identifying the station and decoding it is
a real challenge.  Yet I worked several of the Africa expeditions in exactly
those conditions.  Learning how to overcome such odds, in my opinion, is
equivalent to learning to use Morse code.

 

*  Its not about if it could be done or not! In my point of view  the reason
are that peobles dont have the energy to  permorme a CW QSO for longer
times, it should be done fast, and many,




If you think it does not take "energy" to muddle through that mess for hours
while waiting your turn in the pile-up for a rare expedition, you are
mistaken. 

 

Once a parson has learned to effectively use Morse code, it is his tool to
use for life.  But it is not more important than any of his other tools,
like learning how to solder or build an antenna, or assemble a good station.
All of these mental tools are important and contribute equally to the
satisfaction in making EME contacts.

 

*  The main problem are not signalstrenght, its polarisation,if all hams
have had  the ability to shift polarity many more Qso had been done with
small setups. 




I guess you have not been reading my comments very closely.  I have already
described how I made my own polarization rotation system for my pair of 28
foot long Yagis.  I used a small TV rotator and can rotate both antennas
through more than 90 degrees.  This greatly increases my success ration.  Of
course when I had the 4 Yagi array for CW I often had to wait for polarity
to change to work stations.

 

Lars, it seems all of your arguments assume that the person is not smart
enough to build an effective station, or does not have the patience to work
CW.  I think you need to reconsider.  A lot of the digital operators on all
the bands are experienced EME people who have paid their dues on CW for many
years, and who continue to operate CW on microwave bands (as I do).  They
use digital because it gets through, and because they can work more, and
weaker stations, and can work operators who do not even know Morse code.

 

I seriously doubt that all of your railing against it will change anything.

 

73, Russ K2TXB

 

 

From: Lars Pettersson [mailto:sm4ive at telia.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:38 AM
To: Russ K2TXB; moon at moonbounce.info <mailto:moon at moonbounce.info> 
Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

 

Russ
when i started with 4 yagis 1980 i worked several 4 yagis stations, i even
worked  one  single yagi station.
The main problem are not signalstrenght, its polarisation,if all hams have
had  the ability to shift polarity many more Qso had been done with small
setups. 

Its not about if it could be done or not! In my point of view  the reason
are that peobles dont have the energy to  permorme a CW QSO for longer
times, it should be done fast, and many,
Lars SM4IVE

Russ K2TXB skrev 2014-08-15 23:24:

Yes Jars, you are good at being sarcastic.  How well would you do with a 4
Yagi system on 2 meter CW if you did not have a sked or have a list of
possible stations calls (either in memory or on paper)?

 

Apples and Apples please.

 

73, Russ K2TXB

 

From: Lars Pettersson [ <mailto:sm4ive at telia.com> mailto:sm4ive at telia.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 5:17 PM
To:  <mailto:moon at moonbounce.info> moon at moonbounce.info; Russ K2TXB
Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

 

Ok got your point
How effective would it be if you remove deepsearch and calltxt?
Or to be sarkastic who needs an radio when you have the calltxtfile and cpu.

Russ K2TXB skrev 2014-08-15 21:31:

*******  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME
must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have assembled
reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I suspect is a lower
cost than anyone has done with digital

Hello Ron. I do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter EME station
consists of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 KLM 16LBX antennas
(bought new in 1983 when they first came out, so cheap by today's
standards), A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair (G5500 bought used for $250).  I
built the polarity rotation system entirely from junk box parts, using an
old TV rotator.  Also needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for $50), some
aluminum tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite a bit of hand work
(free as I did not charge myself).  For the digital side, The software was
free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but could have been bought
for under $200), and I built my own computer to rig interface (for under $30
in radio shack parts plus junk box parts).  I don't remember what the
antennas cost but I am guessing around $300 for the pair (maybe less).  So,
for the whole digital system I spent less than $650 dollars ($850 if I had
to buy the computer).

Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME station capable
of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here I would need at least four
antennas (probably more).  So the cheap aluminum tower is out.  I would need
an H frame, a much heavier duty (and separate) AZ and EL rotators, and a
four way or multiple power splitters, more phasing lines, connectors..  The
extra cost for all of that is more than the cost of my whole system.  And
that would not even include the ability to change polarity (I can not figure
out a reasonable method of mechanically rotating polarity of Yagis on an H
frame, and XPOL Yagis are much much more expensive to buy and to support.)

All of the other parts of my station (receiver, transmitter, feed lines,
preamps, amplifier, automatic rotator control system, connectors, etc.) are
required for both systems and can be ignored.  Also it is likely that most
hams already have a computer in the shack so that can be left out of the
digital cost too.

I suppose that my setup is among the cheapest around, but it is still
capable of generating more contacts in a year than I made in 15 years on CW
with 4 of the same kind of Yagis.

Maybe you want to reconsider?

73, Russ K2TXB

 

 

On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow <badl79 at yahoo.com
<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com> > wrote:

Hi Guy,
I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME must be more
expensive than digital operation. Some of us have assembled reasonably
effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I suspect is a lower cost than
anyone has done with digital.
As for required space, an effective 70cm antenna system can be quite small.
An HB9 (I regret to say that I am unable to remember his entire call) had an
absolutely superb signal, some years ago, while using an antenna array that
was erected on his apartment balcony. As I recall, his receive capability
was a match for his ufb transmit signal.
                            73 de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv 

 

 








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-- 
I only work real EME no chatts no Bagpipes
CW is King!!!!






-- 
I only work real EME no chatts no Bagpipes
CW is King!!!!





-- 
I only work real EME no chatts no Bagpipes
CW is King!!!!
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