[Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

sm4ive sm4ive at telia.com
Fri Aug 22 12:11:47 CEST 2014


Benrnd
A coment about when are aQso aQso and the 4K exp please
You forgott that



Skickat från min Samsung Mobil

-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: Bernd DF2ZC <df2zc1 at googlemail.com> 
Datum:2014-08-22  12:06  (GMT+01:00) 
Till: Lars Pettersson <sm4ive at telia.com> 
Kopia: moon at moonbounce.info 
Rubrik: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW 

Lars,

this an answer that is typical of you and others of your kind.

Believe me, I also know how to blow up houses and how to kill people.
Nevertheless, i never did and never will do things like those.

Moreover, why do you always react in a way as if you were personally
accused to have cheated during QSOs? I at least did not do that.

At least we agree that QSO details must not be disclosed while a
contact is still in progress.

Bernd DF2ZC


2014-08-22 11:42 GMT+02:00, Lars Pettersson <sm4ive at telia.com>:
> Bernd
> Your coments cleraly shows that you know how to cheat.!!!
>
> I can only judge for my self !!  i wait until i know all the letters .
> If you are not sure contiue until you are sure.
> I Big problem are that ,many op`s are so Horney on making new Qsos so
> they dont care about rules.
> Se for example what the rules for Qso : Both calls should be excanged,
> signal report, then its a Qso
> Was the 4K  expedition such? No becouse not all of the call could fit in
> the sw. So Acording to the rules this was not valid QSO becouse not  the
> complet call was exchanged. This is ONE of the real problem.....
>
> You can see the same on Chatts where lots of info types on intrernet,
> for example   DF2ZC  i hear you  -21 please contiue
> or i only misses you RRRR  or TX4  and so on
> Operators have to be more serioues about how to make a QSO  if not we
> could remove the rules.
>
> Of course this is my  personal point off view.  If any one wants to
> cheat thats up to him/her, but im not interested in such QSOs
>
> Lars SM4IVE
>
>
> Bernd DF2ZC skrev 2014-08-22 10:45:
>> Dear Russ,
>>
>> I am aware I run the risk of warming up this soup again but there is
>> one paragraph in your correct statements I can't leave without
>> comment:
>>
>>> I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list of stations
>>> versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how these lists are
>>> used.
>>> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a partial call
>>> and grab the list for the band and look through it for the 3 letters they
>>> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they answer the station
>>> sending
>>> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep search, and in fact is often
>>> less reliable in terms of figuring out the correct call.
>> This use of a list is not at all the same as the ds process in JT65.
>> While people using lists only copied for instance "K" and "TX" they
>> then guess that it is K2TXB since that c/s is in their list but have
>> no real basis for a guess. It could have been also an off-list
>> callsign such as "W4KTX" for example.
>>
>> As you know, JT65 however does a correlation of the signal form in the
>> noise with calculated signal forms based on possible combinations with
>> callsigns in call3.txt. It then displays the result of that
>> correlation with a confidence value of the result. It is no guess as
>> above but a mathemactial method to compare two signals. The operator
>> is then left to decide whether he trusts the result of that
>> correlation or not, based on the confidence value attached to that
>> result.
>>
>> Therefore the JT65 DS method is not to be compated to the theat guess
>> into the blue some or many used in the pre WSJT era.
>>
>> Now I'm looking forward to the flaming by the handful of CWisKINGS
>> that of course what I wrote here is wrong, including the notorious
>> personally insulting comments of someone in HB9. For the latter
>> applies the rule "if you get personal it shows you have no point
>> factwise".
>>
>> 73 Bernd DF2ZC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-08-16 6:06 GMT+02:00, Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com>:
>>> Hello Chuck.  Well but you know that I operated CW EME on two meters for
>>> years with a 4 Yagi station.  And yes, I made contacts even with  just
>>> one
>>> antenna.  But tell me, with a station like that could you contact other
>>> stations with same size antenna - maybe, once in a great while.  But I do
>>> it
>>> all the time.  I have spent many hours on CW with my current 2 Yagi
>>> station
>>> trying to work the few stations that I can copy in the ATP's.  Those
>>> stations are all 'bug guns'.  But most of them cannot hear me well enough
>>> to
>>> get my call.  In four hours I am lucky if I make one contact.  Many of
>>> those
>>> EU big guns are running more power that we are allowed over here.  So I
>>> hear
>>> them but they cannot copy me.  And I run a keyer and send very
>>> well-spaced
>>> and accurate CW (usually).  Calling CQ is not even worth my while if they
>>> cannot copy me when I am on their frequency.
>>>
>>> Contrast all that with getting on for a couple of hours and making 2 or
>>> three contacts on must any evening.  I can easily do that with WSJT on 2
>>> meters.  It is just not worth operating CW without a much better antenna
>>> system - meaning more money, more problems with the township, Neighbors,
>>> and
>>> XYL, more difficult maintenance, etc.
>>>
>>> As far as the costs are concerned, I deliberately quoted prices that were
>>> a
>>> little high, because I did not want anyone to think I was exaggerating
>>> how
>>> little I spent.  Yes, I have built my own antennas too, but it is a lot
>>> of
>>> work and time that I could spend improving other areas of my station or
>>> just
>>> operating.  But buy or build, spend little or spend a lot, it will always
>>> cost a lot more to put up a quality CW EME station.
>>>
>>> I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list of stations
>>> versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how these lists are
>>> used.
>>> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a partial call
>>> and grab the list for the band and look through it for the 3 letters they
>>> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they answer the station
>>> sending
>>> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep search, and in fact is often
>>> less reliable in terms of figuring out the correct call.
>>>
>>> You said: "There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to
>>> complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made many
>>> totally
>>> random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they with other well designed
>>> other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even completed 2M WAS, via CW,
>>> using a single and later a two Yagi system."
>>>
>>> Yes it can be done, buy how many years did it take him?  I worked WAS on
>>> 2m
>>> CW with 4 yogis and it took me about 15 years (5 years for the last
>>> state).
>>> If I wanted to do it today I bet I could do it in a year (excepting
>>> states
>>> with no activity).  When conditions are excellent it is sometimes easy to
>>> make CW contacts with a small station, but waiting for those conditions
>>> takes a lot of the fun out of it.  Hours listening to white noise is not
>>> really what it is all about, for me.
>>>
>>> Another factor is the noise levels we have today.  Very lucky is the EME
>>> station who can hear more noise from a 50 ohm resistor than from his 2
>>> meter
>>> antenna!  I used to be able to do that all the time, but in the past 10
>>> years, almost never.  Often the noise from my antennas is 3 or even 6 dB
>>> above the resistor.  Under those conditions CW is useless, digital gets
>>> through.
>>>
>>> Finally, as I get older my hearing is not as sharp as it used to be.  In
>>> fact I wear hearing aids when I need to have conversations - I can hear
>>> the
>>> voices well enough, but often cannot understand what I am hearing.  The
>>> hearing aids help some.  CW is not so hard to understand, but the
>>> tinnitus
>>> (ringing in my ears) often seems to resonate with the pitch I am
>>> listening
>>> to.  I operate CW every year at the K2UYH contest station, on 432 and up,
>>> and lately we have been getting some new younger operators - It is easy
>>> to
>>> tell that they copy the weak ones better than I do.  For a long time I
>>> was
>>> the best of the gang, but no more.
>>>
>>> In summary Digital mode EME has put the fun back into it for me.  I am
>>> able
>>> to have an inexpensive station and make lots of contacts on 2 meters.  If
>>> CW
>>> was my only option I most likely would not be on the air.
>>>
>>> Chuck I know I worked you numerous times back in the good old days on CW
>>> when you were WA6MGZ.  Unfortunately those days are gone.
>>>
>>> 73, Russ K2TXB
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Chuck Smallhouse [mailto:w7cs at theriver.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:18 PM
>>> To: Russ K2TXB; 'Michael Barlow'
>>> Cc: moon at moonbounce.info
>>> Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW
>>>
>>> Russ, Ron, Ed et All,
>>>
>>> Comparing building an EME station today by hams goaded by "Instant
>>> Gratification" and difficult HOA restrictions, with those built a couple
>>> of
>>> decades or so ago, by incentivized HB'ng hams, is most certainly not the
>>> same.  This generation feels that they have to buy everything all ready
>>> for
>>> use, whether it's new or used.
>>>
>>> Antenna manufactures, such as M2 and most others, have increased their
>>> prices on their kits (yes they are kits, as you have to put them together
>>> and test them yourself) by at least five times from what they were in the
>>> late '80's or '90's.  This is not solely because of the increased prices
>>> of
>>> labor, materials and transportation, but also because of the sales and
>>> demand of those that need it Now, Now, Now, Ready To Go !
>>>
>>> Most hams in NA and EU live within driving distances of surplus/scrap or
>>> new
>>> metal dealers.  An SUV with a roof rack is all that's generally needed to
>>> bring the desired items home.  There are quite a few very good antenna
>>> (Yagi) design sites on the Internet, and most give excellent construction
>>> details, even using
>>> different sizes of materials.   The tools in an
>>> average ham's workshop, are all that is required to build and assemble
>>> them.
>>>   IMHO, the use of square aluminium tubing is much preferable, than the
>>> use
>>> of round, for 'H'  frames and Yagi booms, for obvious reasons.
>>>
>>> It used to be most of the fun, to design, plan and to collect and then
>>> build, over time, the items need to put together a successful operating
>>> EME station.    Granted some items (even used)
>>> are now much more expensive, because of the demand's rise in cost of new
>>> items.  However prices some of you have quoted are way above that I've
>>> seen
>>> in person, or even on the Internet.
>>>
>>> There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to complete CW
>>> EME
>>> contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made many totally random QSOs
>>> with single Yagi stations, and they with other well designed other single
>>> or
>>> two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single
>>> and
>>> later a two Yagi system.
>>>
>>> To compare call sign recognition, via previous knowledge, to that via
>>> "Deep
>>> Search" is not even
>>> worth intellectual arguing.   With CW, both
>>> stations have to have complete audible copy of both call signs, reports
>>> and
>>> usually 73's.
>>>
>>> Now I know that this is difficult for "No Code Extras",  or even by those
>>> that haven't used CW in years, but the operating speeds are relatively
>>> quite
>>> slow, and most operators are very patient.  With practice, I maintain
>>> that a
>>> weak CW signal can be copied at very near the strength of that of a
>>> digital
>>> one , which has to be copied in a noisy (RF) computer and other noise
>>> generating environment.   Today's detection
>>> processing, by receivers using SDR techniques, make this difference even
>>> less !
>>>
>>> Yes, the "Dino's" build costs were/are
>>> considerably less than the "Buy" costs of todays EME station, but Ron's
>>> deep
>>> satisfaction of designing (and redesigning) and building it himself, is
>>> worth an awful lot !
>>>
>>> I even had a gentleman's bet with Wayne Overbeck, N6NB, when VUCC was
>>> first
>>> initiated,  that I could accomplish that award in less than one year, on
>>> 2M.
>>>   This was when my QTH was about the furthest west possible in NA, and at
>>> least 80 of my needed Q's could not be easily made terrestrially  Ah Hah,
>>> but Wayne said, you will use an expensive EME station.  No I said, mine
>>> is
>>> mostly all HB, and cost considerably less than a competitive HF DX
>>> chasing
>>> station .
>>>
>>> BTW,  Wayne still owes me a Martini, for 2M VUCC # 13 .
>>>
>>> GL es 73,
>>>
>>> Chuck,  W7CS  ex WA6MGZ
>>>
>>>
>>> t 12:31 PM 8/15/2014, Russ K2TXB wrote:
>>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>          boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05ED_01CFB89E.0A613500"
>>>> Content-Language: en-us
>>>>
>>>> Ø  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME
>>>> must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have
>>>> assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I
>>>> suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital Hello Ron. I
>>>> do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter EME station consists
>>>> of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 KLM 16LBX antennas (bought
>>>> new in 1983 when they first came out, so cheap by today’s standards),
>>>> A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair (G5500 bought used for $250). Â I built the
>>>> polarity rotation system entirely from junk box parts, using an old TV
>>>> rotator.  Also needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for $50), some
>>>> aluminum tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite a bit of hand
>>>> work (free as I did not charge myself).  For the digital side, The
>>>> software was free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but could
>>>> have been bought for under $200), and I built my own computer to rig
>>>> interface (for under $30 in radio shack parts plus junk box parts).  I
>>>> don’t remember what the antennas cost but I am guessing around $300
>>>> for the pair (maybe less).  So, for the whole digital system I spent
>>>> less than $650 dollars ($850 if I had to buy the computer).
>>>> Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME station
>>>> capable of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here I would need
>>>> at least four antennas (probably more).  So the cheap aluminum tower
>>>> is out.  I would need an H frame, a much heavier duty (and separate)
>>>> AZ and EL rotators, and a four way or multiple power splitters, more
>>>> phasing lines, connectors….  The extra cost for all of that is more
>>>> than the cost of my whole system. Â And that would not even include the
>>>> ability to change polarity (I can not figure out a reasonable method of
>>>> mechanically rotating polarity of Yagis on an H frame, and XPOL Yagis
>>>> are much much more expensive to buy and to support.) All of the other
>>>> parts of my station (receiver, transmitter, feed lines, preamps,
>>>> amplifier, automatic rotator control system, connectors,
>>>> etc.) are required for both systems and can be ignored.  Also it is
>>>> likely that most hams already have a computer in the shack so that can
>>>> be left out of the digital cost too.
>>>> I suppose that my setup is among the cheapest around, but it is still
>>>> capable of generating more contacts in a year than I made in 15 years
>>>> on CW with 4 of the same kind of Yagis.
>>>> Maybe you want to reconsider?
>>>> 73, Russ K2TXB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow
>>>> <<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com>badl79 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Guy,
>>>> I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME must be
>>>> more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have assembled
>>>> reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I suspect is a
>>>> lower cost than anyone has done with digital.
>>>> As for required space, an effective 70cm antenna system can be quite
>>>> small. An HB9 (I regret to say that I am unable to remember his entire
>>>> call) had an absolutely superb signal, some years ago, while using an
>>>> antenna array that was erected on his apartment balcony. As I recall,
>>>> his receive capability was a match for his ufb transmit signal.
>>>>                              73 de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>
> --
> I only work real EME no chatts no Bagpipes
> CW is King!!!!
>
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