[Moon] Deep Search IS cheating

[Edward R Cole]

Jack,

No need to quit.  Just add a filter in your 
e-mail for Peter.  Or unsubscribe the moonobounce 
reflector as he is not tolerated on moonnet.

Not all CW-eme operators are intolerant:

I worked G4CCH today on 1296 both with JT65c and 
CW; also OZ4MM though Stig got into his trees so 
we could not finish the CW.  Common window 
between AK and EU is shrinking as declination drops.

Now I am troubleshooting the az-el which quit 
working (either 28v or 12v issue).  Sked at 0130utc tomorrow with UA4LCF.

So there is fun stuff happening - ignore the ranters!

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 09:09 AM 8/22/2014, Jack wrote:
>Although I have not been active in EME for a 
>very long time I enjoy seeing posts about what 
>is going on in the EME community. What I do not 
>need is garbage like Peter just posted. If there 
>is no way to block his vitriol I will leave the group entirely.
>
>Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA
>
>
>On 8/22/2014 9:01 AM, Peter Sundberg wrote:
>>Fellow Moonbouncers,
>>
>>Many moons ago a famous scientist, Joe Taylor K1JT, decided that all CW EME
>>operators were/are cheating, so why not create a software that is cheating.
>>
>>So he did, he came up with a cheating software that he said had 4-6dB mor
>>"sensitivity". People bought his bollocks and DXCC awards for 2m have been
>>flooding out from the ARRL headquarters ever since.
>>
>>Higher bands will follow the trend as there are now new protocols in the
>>JT-package that are cheating, some of them in an somewhat different way
>>than Deep Search. However, still cheating to make contacts.
>>
>>The decision to create a cheating routine in JT65 was totally outrageous,
>>and an pure insult to operators who work EME by the established rules. One
>>of Joe Taylors reason for creating the cheating routine was that "modern
>>operators don't have the patience to wait for the fully received message to
>>appear on the screen" as it did in JT44.
>>
>>Since the beginning, Bernd DF2ZC has been acting as K1JT's attorney,
>>defending his cheating Master by passing on the myth that all CW EME
>>operators cheat. In his opinion Deep Search all "legal". Of course Bernd is
>>of that opinion, it quickly got him DXCC on 2m. Fame...
>>
>>But let me tell you, his Master and the inventor of Deep Search is guilty
>>as charged, Deep Search is cheating, big time. No matter what his attorneys
>>say. It should never have been accepted. The Magistrates' Court of CW has
>>decided that this is the case.
>>
>>Yes Bernd, the earth if flat, and the sun is circling around us until it
>>pops under the edge, that is for sure, I see this every day.
>>
>>And CW is King! Of course! Any callsign, any message, just listen and
>>decode. Mr S Morse sure knew what he was doing. He was not a cheater, by
>>any means. He gave us the king of tools to communicate with.
>>
>>ZUT!
>>
>>73
>>Peter SM2CEW
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 08:45 2014-08-22 , Bernd DF2ZC wrote:
>>>Dear Russ, > >I am aware I run the risk of warming up this soup again but
>>there is >one paragraph in your correct statements I can't leave without
>>>comment: > >>I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list
>>of stations >> versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how these
>>lists are used. >> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations
>>hear a partial call >> and grab the list for the band and look through it
>>for the 3 letters they >> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they
>>answer the station sending >> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep
>>search, and in fact is often >> less reliable in terms of figuring out the
>>correct call. > >This use of a list is not at all the same as the ds
>>process in JT65. >While people using lists only copied for instance "K" and
>>"TX" they >then guess that it is K2TXB since that c/s is in their list but
>>have >no real basis for a guess. It could have been also an off-list
>>>callsign such as "W4KTX" for example. > >As you know, JT65 however does a
>>correlation of the signal form in the >noise with calculated signal forms
>>based on possible combinations with >callsigns in call3.txt. It then
>>displays the result of that >correlation with a confidence value of the
>>result. It is no guess as >above but a mathemactial method to compare two
>>signals. The operator >is then left to decide whether he trusts the result
>>of that >correlation or not, based on the confidence value attached to that
>>>result. > >Therefore the JT65 DS method is not to be compated to the theat
>>guess >into the blue some or many used in the pre WSJT era. > >Now I'm
>>looking forward to the flaming by the handful of CWisKINGS >that of course
>>what I wrote here is wrong, including the notorious >personally insulting
>>comments of someone in HB9. For the latter >applies the rule "if you get
>>personal it shows you have no point >factwise". > >73 Bernd DF2ZC > > > >
>>>2014-08-16 6:06 GMT+02:00, Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com>: >> Hello Chuck.
>>Well but you know that I operated CW EME on two meters for >> years with a
>>4 Yagi station.  And yes, I made contacts even with  just one >> antenna.
>>But tell me, with a station like that could you contact other >> stations
>>with same size antenna - maybe, once in a great while.  But I do it >> all
>>the time.  I have spent many hours on CW with my current 2 Yagi station >>
>>trying to work the few stations that I can copy in the ATP's.  Those >>
>>stations are all 'bug guns'.  But most of them cannot hear me well enough
>>to >> get my call.  In four hours I am lucky if I make one contact.  Many
>>of those >> EU big guns are running more power that we are allowed over
>>here.  So I hear >> them but they cannot copy me.  And I run a keyer and
>>send very well-spaced >> and accurate CW (usually).  Calling CQ is not even
>>worth my while if they >> cannot copy me when I am on their frequency. >>
>>>>Contrast all that with getting on for a couple of hours and making 2 or
>>>>three contacts on must any evening.  I can easily do that with WSJT on 2
>>>>meters.  It is just not worth operating CW without a much better antenna
>>>>system - meaning more money, more problems with the township, Neighbors,
>>and >> XYL, more difficult maintenance, etc. >> >> As far as the costs are
>>concerned, I deliberately quoted prices that were a >> little high, because
>>I did not want anyone to think I was exaggerating how >> little I spent.
>>Yes, I have built my own antennas too, but it is a lot of >> work and time
>>that I could spend improving other areas of my station or just >>
>>operating.  But buy or build, spend little or spend a lot, it will always
>>>>cost a lot more to put up a quality CW EME station. >> >> I disagree
>>about the comparison of knowing or having a list of stations >> versus WSJT
>>deep search.  I am very familiar with how these lists are used. >> I have
>>sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a partial call >> and
>>grab the list for the band and look through it for the 3 letters they >>
>>got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they answer the station sending
>>>>OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep search, and in fact is
>>often >> less reliable in terms of figuring out the correct call. >> >> You
>>said: "There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to >>
>>complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made many
>>totally >> random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they with other well
>>designed >> other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even completed 2M
>>WAS, via CW, >> using a single and later a two Yagi system." >> >> Yes it
>>can be done, buy how many years did it take him?  I worked WAS on 2m >> CW
>>with 4 yogis and it took me about 15 years (5 years for the last state). >>
>>If I wanted to do it today I bet I could do it in a year (excepting states
>>>>with no activity).  When conditions are excellent it is sometimes easy
>>to >> make CW contacts with a small station, but waiting for those
>>conditions >> takes a lot of the fun out of it.  Hours listening to white
>>noise is not >> really what it is all about, for me. >> >> Another factor
>>is the noise levels we have today.  Very lucky is the EME >> station who
>>can hear more noise from a 50 ohm resistor than from his 2 meter >>
>>antenna!  I used to be able to do that all the time, but in the past 10 >>
>>years, almost never.  Often the noise from my antennas is 3 or even 6 dB >>
>>above the resistor.  Under those conditions CW is useless, digital gets >>
>>through. >> >> Finally, as I get older my hearing is not as sharp as it
>>used to be.  In >> fact I wear hearing aids when I need to have
>>conversations - I can hear the >> voices well enough, but often cannot
>>understand what I am hearing.  The >> hearing aids help some.  CW is not so
>>hard to understand, but the tinnitus >> (ringing in my ears) often seems to
>>resonate with the pitch I am listening >> to.  I operate CW every year at
>>the K2UYH contest station, on 432 and up, >> and lately we have been
>>getting some new younger operators - It is easy to >> tell that they copy
>>the weak ones better than I do.  For a long time I was >> the best of the
>>gang, but no more. >> >> In summary Digital mode EME has put the fun back
>>into it for me.  I am able >> to have an inexpensive station and make lots
>>of contacts on 2 meters.  If CW >> was my only option I most likely would
>>not be on the air. >> >> Chuck I know I worked you numerous times back in
>>the good old days on CW >> when you were WA6MGZ.  Unfortunately those days
>>are gone. >> >> 73, Russ K2TXB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From:
>>Chuck Smallhouse [mailto:w7cs at theriver.com] >> Sent: Friday, August 15,
>>2014 8:18 PM >> To: Russ K2TXB; 'Michael Barlow' >> Cc:
>>moon at moonbounce.info >> Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME
>>meeting CW >> >> Russ, Ron, Ed et All, >> >> Comparing building an EME
>>station today by hams goaded by "Instant >> Gratification" and difficult
>>HOA restrictions, with those built a couple of >> decades or so ago, by
>>incentivized HB'ng hams, is most certainly not the >> same.  This
>>generation feels that they have to buy everything all ready for >> use,
>>whether it's new or used. >> >> Antenna manufactures, such as M2 and most
>>others, have increased their >> prices on their kits (yes they are kits, as
>>you have to put them together >> and test them yourself) by at least five
>>times from what they were in the >> late '80's or '90's.  This is not
>>solely because of the increased prices of >> labor, materials and
>>transportation, but also because of the sales and >> demand of those that
>>need it Now, Now, Now, Ready To Go ! >> >> Most hams in NA and EU live
>>within driving distances of surplus/scrap or new >> metal dealers.  An SUV
>>with a roof rack is all that's generally needed to >> bring the desired
>>items home.  There are quite a few very good antenna >> (Yagi) design sites
>>on the Internet, and most give excellent construction >> details, even
>>using >> different sizes of materials.   The tools in an >> average ham's
>>workshop, are all that is required to build and assemble them. >>  IMHO,
>>the use of square aluminium tubing is much preferable, than the use >> of
>>round, for 'H'  frames and Yagi booms, for obvious reasons. >> >> It used
>>to be most of the fun, to design, plan and to collect and then >> build,
>>over time, the items need to put together a successful operating >> EME
>>station.    Granted some items (even used) >> are now much more expensive,
>>because of the demand's rise in cost of new >> items.  However prices some
>>of you have quoted are way above that I've seen >> in person, or even on
>>the Internet. >> >> There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi,
>>station to complete CW EME >> contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I
>>made many totally random QSOs >> with single Yagi stations, and they with
>>other well designed other single or >> two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even
>>completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and >> later a two Yagi system. >>
>>>>To compare call sign recognition, via previous knowledge, to that via
>>"Deep >> Search" is not even >> worth intellectual arguing.   With CW, both
>>>>stations have to have complete audible copy of both call signs, reports
>>and >> usually 73's. >> >> Now I know that this is difficult for "No Code
>>Extras",  or even by those >> that haven't used CW in years, but the
>>operating speeds are relatively quite >> slow, and most operators are very
>>patient.  With practice, I maintain that a >> weak CW signal can be copied
>>at very near the strength of that of a digital >> one , which has to be
>>copied in a noisy (RF) computer and other noise >> generating environment.
>>   Today's detection >> processing, by receivers using SDR techniques, make
>>this difference even >> less ! >> >> Yes, the "Dino's" build costs were/are
>>>>considerably less than the "Buy" costs of todays EME station, but Ron's
>>deep >> satisfaction of designing (and redesigning) and building it
>>himself, is >> worth an awful lot ! >> >> I even had a gentleman's bet with
>>Wayne Overbeck, N6NB, when VUCC was first >> initiated,  that I could
>>accomplish that award in less than one year, on 2M. >>  This was when my
>>QTH was about the furthest west possible in NA, and at >> least 80 of my
>>needed Q's could not be easily made terrestrially  Ah Hah, >> but Wayne
>>said, you will use an expensive EME station.  No I said, mine is >> mostly
>>all HB, and cost considerably less than a competitive HF DX chasing >>
>>station . >> >> BTW,  Wayne still owes me a Martini, for 2M VUCC # 13 . >>
>>>>GL es 73, >> >> Chuck,  W7CS  ex WA6MGZ >> >> >> t 12:31 PM 8/15/2014,
>>Russ K2TXB wrote: >>>Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>
>>boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05ED_01CFB89E.0A613500" >>>Content-Language:
>>en-us >>> >>>Ø  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW
>>(dino) EME >>>must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us
>>have >>>assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I
>>>>>suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital Hello Ron. I
>>>>>do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter EME station consists
>>>>>of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 KLM 16LBX antennas (bought
>>>>>new in 1983 when they first came out, so cheap by today’s
>>standards), >>>A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair (G5500 bought used for $250). Â
>>I built the >>>polarity rotation system entirely from junk box parts, using
>>an old TV >>>rotator.  Also needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for
>>$50), some >>>aluminum tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite a bit
>>of hand >>>work (free as I did not charge myself).  For the digital side,
>>The >>>software was free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but
>>could >>>have been bought for under $200), and I built my own computer to
>>rig >>>interface (for under $30 in radio shack parts plus junk box
>>parts).  I >>>don’t remember what the antennas cost but I am
>>guessing around $300 >>>for the pair (maybe less).  So, for the whole
>>digital system I spent >>>less than $650 dollars ($850 if I had to buy the
>>computer). >>>Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME
>>station >>>capable of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here I
>>would need >>>at least four antennas (probably more).  So the cheap
>>aluminum tower >>>is out.  I would need an H frame, a much heavier duty
>>(and separate) >>>AZ and EL rotators, and a four way or multiple power
>>splitters, more >>>phasing lines, connectors….  The extra cost for all
>>of that is more >>>than the cost of my whole system. Â And that would not
>>even include the >>>ability to change polarity (I can not figure out a
>>reasonable method of >>>mechanically rotating polarity of Yagis on an H
>>frame, and XPOL Yagis >>>are much much more expensive to buy and to
>>support.) All of the other >>>parts of my station (receiver, transmitter,
>>feed lines, preamps, >>>amplifier, automatic rotator control system,
>>connectors, >>>etc.) are required for both systems and can be ignored.Â
>>Also it is >>>likely that most hams already have a computer in the shack so
>>that can >>>be left out of the digital cost too. >>>I suppose that my setup
>>is among the cheapest around, but it is still >>>capable of generating more
>>contacts in a year than I made in 15 years >>>on CW with 4 of the same kind
>>of Yagis. >>>Maybe you want to reconsider? >>>73, Russ K2TXB >>> >>> >>>On
>>Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow
>>>>><<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com>badl79 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>Hi Guy, >>>I
>>respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME must be
>>>>>more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have assembled
>>>>>reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I suspect is a
>>>>>lower cost than anyone has done with digital. >>>As for required space,
>>an effective 70cm antenna system can be quite >>>small. An HB9 (I regret to
>>say that I am unable to remember his entire >>>call) had an absolutely
>>superb signal, some years ago, while using an >>>antenna array that was
>>erected on his apartment balcony. As I recall, >>>his receive capability
>>was a match for his ufb transmit signal. >>>                             73
>>de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv >>> >>> >>>
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73, Ed - KL7UW
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