[Moon] Deep Search IS cheating

[Bob DeVarney W1ICW]

I have resisted chiming in myself, but no longer.

I am among the digital crowd, just dipping my toe into the EME waters. 
My first EME QSO was January of 2010, and I have made exactly one CW EME 
QSO. I have to say there is very little incentive for me to upgrade my 
station to be able to work more CW contacts when I read comments like 
that one. My station is currently four 7-element yagis and 1 kW, and I 
enjoy getting on regularly to work the folks on the band. I could 
frankly care less about DXCC or any of the other awards. I just enjoy 
working people with a station I built myself.

After the continuing vitriol over this issue, I am considering sawing 
the tower down and selling it for scrap and taking up another hobby 
altogether.

Bob W1ICW
On 8/22/2014 1:09 PM, Jack wrote:
> Although I have not been active in EME for a very long time I enjoy 
> seeing posts about what is going on in the EME community. What I do 
> not need is garbage like Peter just posted. If there is no way to 
> block his vitriol I will leave the group entirely.
>
> Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA
>
>
> On 8/22/2014 9:01 AM, Peter Sundberg wrote:
>> Fellow Moonbouncers,
>>
>> Many moons ago a famous scientist, Joe Taylor K1JT, decided that all 
>> CW EME
>> operators were/are cheating, so why not create a software that is 
>> cheating.
>>
>> So he did, he came up with a cheating software that he said had 4-6dB 
>> mor
>> "sensitivity". People bought his bollocks and DXCC awards for 2m have 
>> been
>> flooding out from the ARRL headquarters ever since.
>>
>> Higher bands will follow the trend as there are now new protocols in the
>> JT-package that are cheating, some of them in an somewhat different way
>> than Deep Search. However, still cheating to make contacts.
>>
>> The decision to create a cheating routine in JT65 was totally 
>> outrageous,
>> and an pure insult to operators who work EME by the established 
>> rules. One
>> of Joe Taylors reason for creating the cheating routine was that "modern
>> operators don't have the patience to wait for the fully received 
>> message to
>> appear on the screen" as it did in JT44.
>>
>> Since the beginning, Bernd DF2ZC has been acting as K1JT's attorney,
>> defending his cheating Master by passing on the myth that all CW EME
>> operators cheat. In his opinion Deep Search all "legal". Of course 
>> Bernd is
>> of that opinion, it quickly got him DXCC on 2m. Fame...
>>
>> But let me tell you, his Master and the inventor of Deep Search is 
>> guilty
>> as charged, Deep Search is cheating, big time. No matter what his 
>> attorneys
>> say. It should never have been accepted. The Magistrates' Court of CW 
>> has
>> decided that this is the case.
>>
>> Yes Bernd, the earth if flat, and the sun is circling around us until it
>> pops under the edge, that is for sure, I see this every day.
>>
>> And CW is King! Of course! Any callsign, any message, just listen and
>> decode. Mr S Morse sure knew what he was doing. He was not a cheater, by
>> any means. He gave us the king of tools to communicate with.
>>
>> ZUT!
>>
>> 73
>> Peter SM2CEW
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 08:45 2014-08-22 , Bernd DF2ZC wrote:
>>> Dear Russ, > >I am aware I run the risk of warming up this soup 
>>> again but
>> there is >one paragraph in your correct statements I can't leave without
>>> comment: > >>I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a 
>>> list
>> of stations >> versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how 
>> these
>> lists are used. >> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations
>> hear a partial call >> and grab the list for the band and look 
>> through it
>> for the 3 letters they >> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then 
>> they
>> answer the station sending >> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as 
>> deep
>> search, and in fact is often >> less reliable in terms of figuring 
>> out the
>> correct call. > >This use of a list is not at all the same as the ds
>> process in JT65. >While people using lists only copied for instance 
>> "K" and
>> "TX" they >then guess that it is K2TXB since that c/s is in their 
>> list but
>> have >no real basis for a guess. It could have been also an off-list
>>> callsign such as "W4KTX" for example. > >As you know, JT65 however 
>>> does a
>> correlation of the signal form in the >noise with calculated signal 
>> forms
>> based on possible combinations with >callsigns in call3.txt. It then
>> displays the result of that >correlation with a confidence value of the
>> result. It is no guess as >above but a mathemactial method to compare 
>> two
>> signals. The operator >is then left to decide whether he trusts the 
>> result
>> of that >correlation or not, based on the confidence value attached 
>> to that
>>> result. > >Therefore the JT65 DS method is not to be compated to the 
>>> theat
>> guess >into the blue some or many used in the pre WSJT era. > >Now I'm
>> looking forward to the flaming by the handful of CWisKINGS >that of 
>> course
>> what I wrote here is wrong, including the notorious >personally 
>> insulting
>> comments of someone in HB9. For the latter >applies the rule "if you get
>> personal it shows you have no point >factwise". > >73 Bernd DF2ZC > > 
>> > >
>>> 2014-08-16 6:06 GMT+02:00, Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com>: >> Hello Chuck.
>> Well but you know that I operated CW EME on two meters for >> years 
>> with a
>> 4 Yagi station.  And yes, I made contacts even with  just one >> 
>> antenna.
>> But tell me, with a station like that could you contact other >> 
>> stations
>> with same size antenna - maybe, once in a great while.  But I do it 
>> >> all
>> the time.  I have spent many hours on CW with my current 2 Yagi 
>> station >>
>> trying to work the few stations that I can copy in the ATP's. Those >>
>> stations are all 'bug guns'.  But most of them cannot hear me well 
>> enough
>> to >> get my call.  In four hours I am lucky if I make one contact.  
>> Many
>> of those >> EU big guns are running more power that we are allowed over
>> here.  So I hear >> them but they cannot copy me.  And I run a keyer and
>> send very well-spaced >> and accurate CW (usually). Calling CQ is not 
>> even
>> worth my while if they >> cannot copy me when I am on their 
>> frequency. >>
>>>> Contrast all that with getting on for a couple of hours and making 
>>>> 2 or
>>>> three contacts on must any evening.  I can easily do that with WSJT 
>>>> on 2
>>>> meters.  It is just not worth operating CW without a much better 
>>>> antenna
>>>> system - meaning more money, more problems with the township, 
>>>> Neighbors,
>> and >> XYL, more difficult maintenance, etc. >> >> As far as the 
>> costs are
>> concerned, I deliberately quoted prices that were a >> little high, 
>> because
>> I did not want anyone to think I was exaggerating how >> little I spent.
>> Yes, I have built my own antennas too, but it is a lot of >> work and 
>> time
>> that I could spend improving other areas of my station or just >>
>> operating.  But buy or build, spend little or spend a lot, it will 
>> always
>>>> cost a lot more to put up a quality CW EME station. >> >> I disagree
>> about the comparison of knowing or having a list of stations >> 
>> versus WSJT
>> deep search.  I am very familiar with how these lists are used. >> I 
>> have
>> sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a partial call >> 
>> and
>> grab the list for the band and look through it for the 3 letters they >>
>> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they answer the station 
>> sending
>>>> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep search, and in fact is
>> often >> less reliable in terms of figuring out the correct call. >> 
>> >> You
>> said: "There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to >>
>> complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made many
>> totally >> random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they with other 
>> well
>> designed >> other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even completed 2M
>> WAS, via CW, >> using a single and later a two Yagi system." >> >> 
>> Yes it
>> can be done, buy how many years did it take him?  I worked WAS on 2m 
>> >> CW
>> with 4 yogis and it took me about 15 years (5 years for the last 
>> state). >>
>> If I wanted to do it today I bet I could do it in a year (excepting 
>> states
>>>> with no activity).  When conditions are excellent it is sometimes easy
>> to >> make CW contacts with a small station, but waiting for those
>> conditions >> takes a lot of the fun out of it.  Hours listening to 
>> white
>> noise is not >> really what it is all about, for me. >> >> Another 
>> factor
>> is the noise levels we have today.  Very lucky is the EME >> station who
>> can hear more noise from a 50 ohm resistor than from his 2 meter >>
>> antenna!  I used to be able to do that all the time, but in the past 
>> 10 >>
>> years, almost never.  Often the noise from my antennas is 3 or even 6 
>> dB >>
>> above the resistor.  Under those conditions CW is useless, digital 
>> gets >>
>> through. >> >> Finally, as I get older my hearing is not as sharp as it
>> used to be.  In >> fact I wear hearing aids when I need to have
>> conversations - I can hear the >> voices well enough, but often cannot
>> understand what I am hearing.  The >> hearing aids help some.  CW is 
>> not so
>> hard to understand, but the tinnitus >> (ringing in my ears) often 
>> seems to
>> resonate with the pitch I am listening >> to.  I operate CW every 
>> year at
>> the K2UYH contest station, on 432 and up, >> and lately we have been
>> getting some new younger operators - It is easy to >> tell that they 
>> copy
>> the weak ones better than I do.  For a long time I was >> the best of 
>> the
>> gang, but no more. >> >> In summary Digital mode EME has put the fun 
>> back
>> into it for me.  I am able >> to have an inexpensive station and make 
>> lots
>> of contacts on 2 meters.  If CW >> was my only option I most likely 
>> would
>> not be on the air. >> >> Chuck I know I worked you numerous times 
>> back in
>> the good old days on CW >> when you were WA6MGZ. Unfortunately those 
>> days
>> are gone. >> >> 73, Russ K2TXB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From:
>> Chuck Smallhouse [mailto:w7cs at theriver.com] >> Sent: Friday, August 15,
>> 2014 8:18 PM >> To: Russ K2TXB; 'Michael Barlow' >> Cc:
>> moon at moonbounce.info >> Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME
>> meeting CW >> >> Russ, Ron, Ed et All, >> >> Comparing building an EME
>> station today by hams goaded by "Instant >> Gratification" and difficult
>> HOA restrictions, with those built a couple of >> decades or so ago, by
>> incentivized HB'ng hams, is most certainly not the >> same.  This
>> generation feels that they have to buy everything all ready for >> use,
>> whether it's new or used. >> >> Antenna manufactures, such as M2 and 
>> most
>> others, have increased their >> prices on their kits (yes they are 
>> kits, as
>> you have to put them together >> and test them yourself) by at least 
>> five
>> times from what they were in the >> late '80's or '90's. This is not
>> solely because of the increased prices of >> labor, materials and
>> transportation, but also because of the sales and >> demand of those 
>> that
>> need it Now, Now, Now, Ready To Go ! >> >> Most hams in NA and EU live
>> within driving distances of surplus/scrap or new >> metal dealers.  
>> An SUV
>> with a roof rack is all that's generally needed to >> bring the desired
>> items home.  There are quite a few very good antenna >> (Yagi) design 
>> sites
>> on the Internet, and most give excellent construction >> details, even
>> using >> different sizes of materials.   The tools in an >> average 
>> ham's
>> workshop, are all that is required to build and assemble them. >>  IMHO,
>> the use of square aluminium tubing is much preferable, than the use 
>> >> of
>> round, for 'H'  frames and Yagi booms, for obvious reasons. >> >> It 
>> used
>> to be most of the fun, to design, plan and to collect and then >> build,
>> over time, the items need to put together a successful operating >> EME
>> station.    Granted some items (even used) >> are now much more 
>> expensive,
>> because of the demand's rise in cost of new >> items. However prices 
>> some
>> of you have quoted are way above that I've seen >> in person, or even on
>> the Internet. >> >> There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi,
>> station to complete CW EME >> contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I
>> made many totally random QSOs >> with single Yagi stations, and they 
>> with
>> other well designed other single or >> two Yagi stations. PA0JMV even
>> completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and >> later a two Yagi 
>> system. >>
>>>> To compare call sign recognition, via previous knowledge, to that via
>> "Deep >> Search" is not even >> worth intellectual arguing.   With 
>> CW, both
>>>> stations have to have complete audible copy of both call signs, 
>>>> reports
>> and >> usually 73's. >> >> Now I know that this is difficult for "No 
>> Code
>> Extras",  or even by those >> that haven't used CW in years, but the
>> operating speeds are relatively quite >> slow, and most operators are 
>> very
>> patient.  With practice, I maintain that a >> weak CW signal can be 
>> copied
>> at very near the strength of that of a digital >> one , which has to be
>> copied in a noisy (RF) computer and other noise >> generating 
>> environment.
>>   Today's detection >> processing, by receivers using SDR techniques, 
>> make
>> this difference even >> less ! >> >> Yes, the "Dino's" build costs 
>> were/are
>>>> considerably less than the "Buy" costs of todays EME station, but 
>>>> Ron's
>> deep >> satisfaction of designing (and redesigning) and building it
>> himself, is >> worth an awful lot ! >> >> I even had a gentleman's 
>> bet with
>> Wayne Overbeck, N6NB, when VUCC was first >> initiated, that I could
>> accomplish that award in less than one year, on 2M. >> This was when my
>> QTH was about the furthest west possible in NA, and at >> least 80 of my
>> needed Q's could not be easily made terrestrially  Ah Hah, >> but Wayne
>> said, you will use an expensive EME station.  No I said, mine is >> 
>> mostly
>> all HB, and cost considerably less than a competitive HF DX chasing >>
>> station . >> >> BTW,  Wayne still owes me a Martini, for 2M VUCC # 13 
>> . >>
>>>> GL es 73, >> >> Chuck, W7CS  ex WA6MGZ >> >> >> t 12:31 PM 8/15/2014,
>> Russ K2TXB wrote: >>>Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>
>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05ED_01CFB89E.0A613500" 
>> >>>Content-Language:
>> en-us >>> >>>Ø  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW
>> (dino) EME >>>must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us
>> have >>>assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I
>>>>> suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital Hello 
>>>>> Ron. I
>>>>> do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter EME station 
>>>>> consists
>>>>> of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 KLM 16LBX antennas (bought
>>>>> new in 1983 when they first came out, so cheap by today’s
>> standards), >>>A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair (G5500 bought used for 
>> $250). Â
>> I built the >>>polarity rotation system entirely from junk box parts, 
>> using
>> an old TV >>>rotator.  Also needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for
>> $50), some >>>aluminum tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite 
>> a bit
>> of hand >>>work (free as I did not charge myself). For the digital 
>> side,
>> The >>>software was free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but
>> could >>>have been bought for under $200), and I built my own 
>> computer to
>> rig >>>interface (for under $30 in radio shack parts plus junk box
>> parts).  I >>>don’t remember what the antennas cost but I am
>> guessing around $300 >>>for the pair (maybe less). So, for the whole
>> digital system I spent >>>less than $650 dollars ($850 if I had to 
>> buy the
>> computer). >>>Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME
>> station >>>capable of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here I
>> would need >>>at least four antennas (probably more).  So the cheap
>> aluminum tower >>>is out.  I would need an H frame, a much heavier 
>> duty
>> (and separate) >>>AZ and EL rotators, and a four way or multiple power
>> splitters, more >>>phasing lines, connectors….  The extra cost 
>> for all
>> of that is more >>>than the cost of my whole system. Â And that 
>> would not
>> even include the >>>ability to change polarity (I can not figure out a
>> reasonable method of >>>mechanically rotating polarity of Yagis on an H
>> frame, and XPOL Yagis >>>are much much more expensive to buy and to
>> support.) All of the other >>>parts of my station (receiver, 
>> transmitter,
>> feed lines, preamps, >>>amplifier, automatic rotator control system,
>> connectors, >>>etc.) are required for both systems and can be ignored.Â
>> Also it is >>>likely that most hams already have a computer in the 
>> shack so
>> that can >>>be left out of the digital cost too. >>>I suppose that my 
>> setup
>> is among the cheapest around, but it is still >>>capable of 
>> generating more
>> contacts in a year than I made in 15 years >>>on CW with 4 of the 
>> same kind
>> of Yagis. >>>Maybe you want to reconsider? >>>73, Russ K2TXB >>> >>> 
>> >>>On
>> Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow
>>>>> <<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com>badl79 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>Hi Guy, >>>I
>> respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME must be
>>>>> more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have assembled
>>>>> reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I suspect is a
>>>>> lower cost than anyone has done with digital. >>>As for required 
>>>>> space,
>> an effective 70cm antenna system can be quite >>>small. An HB9 (I 
>> regret to
>> say that I am unable to remember his entire >>>call) had an absolutely
>> superb signal, some years ago, while using an >>>antenna array that was
>> erected on his apartment balcony. As I recall, >>>his receive capability
>> was a match for his ufb transmit signal. 
>> >>>                             73
>> de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv >>> >>> >>>
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>>>>> >> >>
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