[Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

[Dominique Fässler]

-----Original Message-----
From: Moon [mailto:moon-bounces at moonbounce.info] On Behalf Of Bernd DF2ZC
Sent: Freitag, 22. August 2014 15:28
To: Rainer
Cc: Moon Reflector
Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

Nobody - I repeat: nobody - tells me to shut my mouth, let alone you, Mr. Rainer!

You shot your knee now, proving that this so-called "free talk"
reflector here is nothing but a complete farce if one does not follow the wrong opinions of the main(?)-stream. Hahaha!



2014-08-22 13:56 GMT+02:00, Rainer <df6na at df6na.de>:
> Don't turn around the facts ! The one who is personally attacking 
> people is yourself only !!!
> You only try to diffame and accuse people - ther is no facts or else 
> in your attacks.
>
> Just shut up as I told you before!
>
>
>
> Am 22.08.2014 13:26, schrieb Bernd DF2ZC:
>> That is the kind of replies I like...not dealing with facts, pure 
>> personal attacks and statements of the kind of "the Earth is a disk", 
>> it can't be true what I do not unterstand (in your case: what I'm not 
>> willing to understand).If you feel you need extra tuition on 
>> correlation please teach yourself on wikipedia or elsewhere before 
>> you start expressing false opinions.
>>
>> Lieber Rainer, wenn Du "Deinen" Reflektor schon als Hort der freien 
>> Diskussion bewirbst, dann verbitte ich mir auch solche Bevormundungen.
>> Ich habe niemanden persönlich angegriffen, aber Ihr führt Euch alle 
>> stets so auf, als ob man jedem persönlich das betrügen unterstellt.
>>
>> 73 Bernd
>>
>>
>> 2014-08-22 12:24 GMT+02:00, Rainer <df6na at df6na.de>:
>>> It's not only wrong but it is also stupid!
>>> Possibly you speak of your own experience and try to miscredit others.
>>> Just stop this nonsens.
>>>
>>> 73, Rainer
>>>
>>> Am 22.08.2014 10:45, schrieb Bernd DF2ZC:
>>>> Dear Russ,
>>>>
>>>> I am aware I run the risk of warming up this soup again but there 
>>>> is one paragraph in your correct statements I can't leave without
>>>> comment:
>>>>
>>>>> I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list of 
>>>>> stations versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how 
>>>>> these lists are used.
>>>>> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a 
>>>>> partial call and grab the list for the band and look through it 
>>>>> for the 3 letters they got, until the find a call that fits.  Then 
>>>>> they answer the station sending OOO.  That is exactly the same 
>>>>> thing as deep search, and in fact is often less reliable in terms 
>>>>> of figuring out the correct call.
>>>> This use of a list is not at all the same as the ds process in JT65.
>>>> While people using lists only copied for instance "K" and "TX" they 
>>>> then guess that it is K2TXB since that c/s is in their list but 
>>>> have no real basis for a guess. It could have been also an off-list 
>>>> callsign such as "W4KTX" for example.
>>>>
>>>> As you know, JT65 however does a correlation of the signal form in 
>>>> the noise with calculated signal forms based on possible 
>>>> combinations with callsigns in call3.txt. It then displays the 
>>>> result of that correlation with a confidence value of the result. 
>>>> It is no guess as above but a mathemactial method to compare two 
>>>> signals. The operator is then left to decide whether he trusts the 
>>>> result of that correlation or not, based on the confidence value 
>>>> attached to that result.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore the JT65 DS method is not to be compated to the theat 
>>>> guess into the blue some or many used in the pre WSJT era.
>>>>
>>>> Now I'm looking forward to the flaming by the handful of CWisKINGS 
>>>> that of course what I wrote here is wrong, including the notorious 
>>>> personally insulting comments of someone in HB9. For the latter 
>>>> applies the rule "if you get personal it shows you have no point 
>>>> factwise".
>>>>
>>>> 73 Bernd DF2ZC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2014-08-16 6:06 GMT+02:00, Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com>:
>>>>> Hello Chuck.  Well but you know that I operated CW EME on two 
>>>>> meters for years with a 4 Yagi station.  And yes, I made contacts 
>>>>> even with  just one antenna.  But tell me, with a station like 
>>>>> that could you contact other stations with same size antenna - 
>>>>> maybe, once in a great while.  But I do it all the time.  I have 
>>>>> spent many hours on CW with my current 2 Yagi station trying to 
>>>>> work the few stations that I can copy in the ATP's.  Those 
>>>>> stations are all 'bug guns'.  But most of them cannot hear me well 
>>>>> enough to get my call.  In four hours I am lucky if I make one 
>>>>> contact.  Many of those EU big guns are running more power that we 
>>>>> are allowed over here.  So I hear them but they cannot copy me.  
>>>>> And I run a keyer and send very well-spaced and accurate CW 
>>>>> (usually).  Calling CQ is not even worth my while if they cannot 
>>>>> copy me when I am on their frequency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Contrast all that with getting on for a couple of hours and making 
>>>>> 2 or three contacts on must any evening.  I can easily do that 
>>>>> with WSJT on
>>>>> 2
>>>>> meters.  It is just not worth operating CW without a much better 
>>>>> antenna system - meaning more money, more problems with the 
>>>>> township, Neighbors, and XYL, more difficult maintenance, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the costs are concerned, I deliberately quoted prices 
>>>>> that were a little high, because I did not want anyone to think I 
>>>>> was exaggerating how little I spent.  Yes, I have built my own 
>>>>> antennas too, but it is a lot of work and time that I could spend 
>>>>> improving other areas of my station or just operating.  But buy or 
>>>>> build, spend little or spend a lot, it will always cost a lot more 
>>>>> to put up a quality CW EME station.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list of 
>>>>> stations versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how 
>>>>> these lists are used.
>>>>> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a 
>>>>> partial call and grab the list for the band and look through it 
>>>>> for the 3 letters they got, until the find a call that fits.  Then 
>>>>> they answer the station sending OOO.  That is exactly the same 
>>>>> thing as deep search, and in fact is often less reliable in terms 
>>>>> of figuring out the correct call.
>>>>>
>>>>> You said: "There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, 
>>>>> station to complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  
>>>>> I made many totally random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and 
>>>>> they with other well designed other single or two Yagi stations.  
>>>>> PA0JMV even completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and later a 
>>>>> two Yagi system."
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it can be done, buy how many years did it take him?  I worked 
>>>>> WAS on 2m CW with 4 yogis and it took me about 15 years (5 years 
>>>>> for the last state).
>>>>> If I wanted to do it today I bet I could do it in a year 
>>>>> (excepting states with no activity).  When conditions are 
>>>>> excellent it is sometimes easy to make CW contacts with a small 
>>>>> station, but waiting for those conditions takes a lot of the fun 
>>>>> out of it.  Hours listening to white noise is not really what it 
>>>>> is all about, for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another factor is the noise levels we have today.  Very lucky is 
>>>>> the EME station who can hear more noise from a 50 ohm resistor 
>>>>> than from his 2 meter antenna!  I used to be able to do that all 
>>>>> the time, but in the past 10 years, almost never.  Often the noise 
>>>>> from my antennas is 3 or even 6 dB above the resistor.  Under 
>>>>> those conditions CW is useless, digital gets through.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, as I get older my hearing is not as sharp as it used to be.
>>>>> In
>>>>> fact I wear hearing aids when I need to have conversations - I can 
>>>>> hear the voices well enough, but often cannot understand what I am 
>>>>> hearing.  The hearing aids help some.  CW is not so hard to 
>>>>> understand, but the tinnitus (ringing in my ears) often seems to 
>>>>> resonate with the pitch I am listening to.  I operate CW every 
>>>>> year at the K2UYH contest station, on 432 and up, and lately we 
>>>>> have been getting some new younger operators - It is easy to tell 
>>>>> that they copy the weak ones better than I do.  For a long time I 
>>>>> was the best of the gang, but no more.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary Digital mode EME has put the fun back into it for me.  
>>>>> I am able to have an inexpensive station and make lots of contacts 
>>>>> on 2 meters.
>>>>> If
>>>>> CW
>>>>> was my only option I most likely would not be on the air.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck I know I worked you numerous times back in the good old days 
>>>>> on CW when you were WA6MGZ.  Unfortunately those days are gone.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73, Russ K2TXB
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Chuck Smallhouse [mailto:w7cs at theriver.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:18 PM
>>>>> To: Russ K2TXB; 'Michael Barlow'
>>>>> Cc: moon at moonbounce.info
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW
>>>>>
>>>>> Russ, Ron, Ed et All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Comparing building an EME station today by hams goaded by "Instant 
>>>>> Gratification" and difficult HOA restrictions, with those built a 
>>>>> couple of decades or so ago, by incentivized HB'ng hams, is most 
>>>>> certainly not the same.  This generation feels that they have to 
>>>>> buy everything all ready for use, whether it's new or used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antenna manufactures, such as M2 and most others, have increased 
>>>>> their prices on their kits (yes they are kits, as you have to put 
>>>>> them together and test them yourself) by at least five times from 
>>>>> what they were in the late '80's or '90's.  This is not solely 
>>>>> because of the increased prices of labor, materials and 
>>>>> transportation, but also because of the sales and demand of those 
>>>>> that need it Now, Now, Now, Ready To Go !
>>>>>
>>>>> Most hams in NA and EU live within driving distances of 
>>>>> surplus/scrap or new metal dealers.  An SUV with a roof rack is 
>>>>> all that's generally needed to bring the desired items home.  
>>>>> There are quite a few very good antenna
>>>>> (Yagi) design sites on the Internet, and most give excellent 
>>>>> construction details, even using
>>>>> different sizes of materials.   The tools in an
>>>>> average ham's workshop, are all that is required to build and 
>>>>> assemble them.
>>>>>    IMHO, the use of square aluminium tubing is much preferable, 
>>>>> than the use of round, for 'H'  frames and Yagi booms, for obvious 
>>>>> reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> It used to be most of the fun, to design, plan and to collect and 
>>>>> then build, over time, the items need to put together a successful operating
>>>>> EME station.    Granted some items (even used)
>>>>> are now much more expensive, because of the demand's rise in cost 
>>>>> of new items.  However prices some of you have quoted are way 
>>>>> above that I've seen in person, or even on the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to 
>>>>> complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made 
>>>>> many totally random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they with 
>>>>> other well designed other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV 
>>>>> even completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and later a two Yagi 
>>>>> system.
>>>>>
>>>>> To compare call sign recognition, via previous knowledge, to that 
>>>>> via "Deep Search" is not even
>>>>> worth intellectual arguing.   With CW, both
>>>>> stations have to have complete audible copy of both call signs, 
>>>>> reports and usually 73's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I know that this is difficult for "No Code Extras",  or even 
>>>>> by those that haven't used CW in years, but the operating speeds 
>>>>> are relatively quite slow, and most operators are very patient.  
>>>>> With practice, I maintain that a weak CW signal can be copied at 
>>>>> very near the strength of that of a digital one , which has to be 
>>>>> copied in a noisy (RF) computer and other noise
>>>>> generating environment.   Today's detection
>>>>> processing, by receivers using SDR techniques, make this 
>>>>> difference even less !
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the "Dino's" build costs were/are considerably less than the 
>>>>> "Buy" costs of todays EME station, but Ron's deep satisfaction of 
>>>>> designing (and redesigning) and building it himself, is worth an 
>>>>> awful lot !
>>>>>
>>>>> I even had a gentleman's bet with Wayne Overbeck, N6NB, when VUCC 
>>>>> was first initiated,  that I could accomplish that award in less 
>>>>> than one year, on 2M.
>>>>>    This was when my QTH was about the furthest west possible in 
>>>>> NA, and at least 80 of my needed Q's could not be easily made 
>>>>> terrestrially  Ah Hah, but Wayne said, you will use an expensive 
>>>>> EME station.  No I said, mine is mostly all HB, and cost 
>>>>> considerably less than a competitive HF DX chasing station .
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW,  Wayne still owes me a Martini, for 2M VUCC # 13 .
>>>>>
>>>>> GL es 73,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck,  W7CS  ex WA6MGZ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> t 12:31 PM 8/15/2014, Russ K2TXB wrote:
>>>>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>>           boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05ED_01CFB89E.0A613500"
>>>>>> Content-Language: en-us
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ø  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) 
>>>>>> EME must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us 
>>>>>> have assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at 
>>>>>> what I suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital 
>>>>>> Hello Ron. I do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter 
>>>>>> EME station consists of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 
>>>>>> KLM 16LBX antennas (bought new in 1983 when they first came out, 
>>>>>> so cheap by today’s standards), A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair 
>>>>>> (G5500 bought used for $250). Â I built the polarity rotation 
>>>>>> system entirely from junk box parts, using an old TV rotator.  
>>>>>> Also needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for $50), some aluminum 
>>>>>> tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite a bit of hand work 
>>>>>> (free as I did not charge myself).  For the digital side, The 
>>>>>> software was free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but 
>>>>>> could have been bought for under $200), and I built my own 
>>>>>> computer to rig interface (for under $30 in radio shack parts 
>>>>>> plus junk box parts). I don’t remember what the antennas cost 
>>>>>> but I am guessing around $300 for the pair (maybe less).  So, 
>>>>>> for the whole digital system I spent less than $650 dollars ($850 
>>>>>> if I had to buy the computer).
>>>>>> Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME 
>>>>>> station capable of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here 
>>>>>> I would need at least four antennas (probably more).  So the 
>>>>>> cheap aluminum tower is out.  I would need an H frame, a much 
>>>>>> heavier duty (and separate) AZ and EL rotators, and a four way or 
>>>>>> multiple power splitters, more phasing lines, connectors….  The 
>>>>>> extra cost for all of that is more than the cost of my whole 
>>>>>> system. Â And that would not even include the ability to change 
>>>>>> polarity (I can not figure out a reasonable method of 
>>>>>> mechanically rotating polarity of Yagis on an H frame, and XPOL 
>>>>>> Yagis are much much more expensive to buy and to support.) All of 
>>>>>> the other parts of my station (receiver, transmitter, feed lines, 
>>>>>> preamps, amplifier, automatic rotator control system, connectors,
>>>>>> etc.) are required for both systems and can be ignored.  Also it 
>>>>>> is likely that most hams already have a computer in the shack so 
>>>>>> that can be left out of the digital cost too.
>>>>>> I suppose that my setup is among the cheapest around, but it is 
>>>>>> still capable of generating more contacts in a year than I made 
>>>>>> in 15 years on CW with 4 of the same kind of Yagis.
>>>>>> Maybe you want to reconsider?
>>>>>> 73, Russ K2TXB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow 
>>>>>> <<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com>badl79 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Guy,
>>>>>> I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME 
>>>>>> must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have 
>>>>>> assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I 
>>>>>> suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital.
>>>>>> As for required space, an effective 70cm antenna system can be 
>>>>>> quite small. An HB9 (I regret to say that I am unable to remember 
>>>>>> his entire
>>>>>> call) had an absolutely superb signal, some years ago, while 
>>>>>> using an antenna array that was erected on his apartment balcony. 
>>>>>> As I recall, his receive capability was a match for his ufb transmit signal.
>>>>>>                               73 de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Moon mailing list
>>>>>> Moon at moonbounce.info
>>>>>> http://lists.moonbounce.info/listinfo/moon
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Moon mailing list
>>>>> Moon at moonbounce.info
>>>>> http://lists.moonbounce.info/listinfo/moon
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Moon mailing list
>>>> Moon at moonbounce.info
>>>> http://lists.moonbounce.info/listinfo/moon
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moon mailing list
> Moon at moonbounce.info
> http://lists.moonbounce.info/listinfo/moon
>
_______________________________________________
Moon mailing list
Moon at moonbounce.info
http://lists.moonbounce.info/listinfo/moon

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Von Panda GP 2014 eingef gter Text:

 Wenn es eine unerw nschte Mail (SPAM) ist, klicken Sie auf den folgenden Link um diese neu zu klassifizieren: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_11201&SPAM=true&path=C:\Users\BBD\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202014\AntiSpam
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------