[Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

[Dominique Fässler]

Das Betrügen würde man korrekt gross schreiben... Schulbildung eines newsletter Schreiblings.

-----Original Message-----
From: Moon [mailto:moon-bounces at moonbounce.info] On Behalf Of Rainer
Sent: Freitag, 22. August 2014 13:57
To: Moon Reflector
Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW

Don't turn around the facts ! The one who is personally attacking people is yourself only !!!
You only try to diffame and accuse people - ther is no facts or else in your attacks.

Just shut up as I told you before!



Am 22.08.2014 13:26, schrieb Bernd DF2ZC:
> That is the kind of replies I like...not dealing with facts, pure 
> personal attacks and statements of the kind of "the Earth is a disk", 
> it can't be true what I do not unterstand (in your case: what I'm not 
> willing to understand).If you feel you need extra tuition on 
> correlation please teach yourself on wikipedia or elsewhere before you 
> start expressing false opinions.
>
> Lieber Rainer, wenn Du "Deinen" Reflektor schon als Hort der freien 
> Diskussion bewirbst, dann verbitte ich mir auch solche Bevormundungen.
> Ich habe niemanden persönlich angegriffen, aber Ihr führt Euch alle 
> stets so auf, als ob man jedem persönlich das betrügen unterstellt.
>
> 73 Bernd
>
>
> 2014-08-22 12:24 GMT+02:00, Rainer <df6na at df6na.de>:
>> It's not only wrong but it is also stupid!
>> Possibly you speak of your own experience and try to miscredit others.
>> Just stop this nonsens.
>>
>> 73, Rainer
>>
>> Am 22.08.2014 10:45, schrieb Bernd DF2ZC:
>>> Dear Russ,
>>>
>>> I am aware I run the risk of warming up this soup again but there is 
>>> one paragraph in your correct statements I can't leave without
>>> comment:
>>>
>>>> I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list of 
>>>> stations versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how 
>>>> these lists are used.
>>>> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a 
>>>> partial call and grab the list for the band and look through it for 
>>>> the 3 letters they got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they 
>>>> answer the station sending OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as 
>>>> deep search, and in fact is often less reliable in terms of 
>>>> figuring out the correct call.
>>> This use of a list is not at all the same as the ds process in JT65.
>>> While people using lists only copied for instance "K" and "TX" they 
>>> then guess that it is K2TXB since that c/s is in their list but have 
>>> no real basis for a guess. It could have been also an off-list 
>>> callsign such as "W4KTX" for example.
>>>
>>> As you know, JT65 however does a correlation of the signal form in 
>>> the noise with calculated signal forms based on possible 
>>> combinations with callsigns in call3.txt. It then displays the 
>>> result of that correlation with a confidence value of the result. It 
>>> is no guess as above but a mathemactial method to compare two 
>>> signals. The operator is then left to decide whether he trusts the 
>>> result of that correlation or not, based on the confidence value 
>>> attached to that result.
>>>
>>> Therefore the JT65 DS method is not to be compated to the theat 
>>> guess into the blue some or many used in the pre WSJT era.
>>>
>>> Now I'm looking forward to the flaming by the handful of CWisKINGS 
>>> that of course what I wrote here is wrong, including the notorious 
>>> personally insulting comments of someone in HB9. For the latter 
>>> applies the rule "if you get personal it shows you have no point 
>>> factwise".
>>>
>>> 73 Bernd DF2ZC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-08-16 6:06 GMT+02:00, Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com>:
>>>> Hello Chuck.  Well but you know that I operated CW EME on two 
>>>> meters for years with a 4 Yagi station.  And yes, I made contacts 
>>>> even with  just one antenna.  But tell me, with a station like that 
>>>> could you contact other stations with same size antenna - maybe, 
>>>> once in a great while.  But I do it all the time.  I have spent 
>>>> many hours on CW with my current 2 Yagi station trying to work the 
>>>> few stations that I can copy in the ATP's.  Those stations are all 
>>>> 'bug guns'.  But most of them cannot hear me well enough to get my 
>>>> call.  In four hours I am lucky if I make one contact.  Many of 
>>>> those EU big guns are running more power that we are allowed over 
>>>> here.  So I hear them but they cannot copy me.  And I run a keyer 
>>>> and send very well-spaced and accurate CW (usually).  Calling CQ is 
>>>> not even worth my while if they cannot copy me when I am on their 
>>>> frequency.
>>>>
>>>> Contrast all that with getting on for a couple of hours and making 
>>>> 2 or three contacts on must any evening.  I can easily do that with 
>>>> WSJT on 2 meters.  It is just not worth operating CW without a much 
>>>> better antenna system - meaning more money, more problems with the 
>>>> township, Neighbors, and XYL, more difficult maintenance, etc.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the costs are concerned, I deliberately quoted prices 
>>>> that were a little high, because I did not want anyone to think I 
>>>> was exaggerating how little I spent.  Yes, I have built my own 
>>>> antennas too, but it is a lot of work and time that I could spend 
>>>> improving other areas of my station or just operating.  But buy or 
>>>> build, spend little or spend a lot, it will always cost a lot more 
>>>> to put up a quality CW EME station.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a list of 
>>>> stations versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how 
>>>> these lists are used.
>>>> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a 
>>>> partial call and grab the list for the band and look through it for 
>>>> the 3 letters they got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they 
>>>> answer the station sending OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as 
>>>> deep search, and in fact is often less reliable in terms of 
>>>> figuring out the correct call.
>>>>
>>>> You said: "There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, 
>>>> station to complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  
>>>> I made many totally random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they 
>>>> with other well designed other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV 
>>>> even completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and later a two Yagi 
>>>> system."
>>>>
>>>> Yes it can be done, buy how many years did it take him?  I worked 
>>>> WAS on 2m CW with 4 yogis and it took me about 15 years (5 years 
>>>> for the last state).
>>>> If I wanted to do it today I bet I could do it in a year (excepting 
>>>> states with no activity).  When conditions are excellent it is 
>>>> sometimes easy to make CW contacts with a small station, but 
>>>> waiting for those conditions takes a lot of the fun out of it.  
>>>> Hours listening to white noise is not really what it is all about, 
>>>> for me.
>>>>
>>>> Another factor is the noise levels we have today.  Very lucky is 
>>>> the EME station who can hear more noise from a 50 ohm resistor than 
>>>> from his 2 meter antenna!  I used to be able to do that all the 
>>>> time, but in the past 10 years, almost never.  Often the noise from 
>>>> my antennas is 3 or even 6 dB above the resistor.  Under those 
>>>> conditions CW is useless, digital gets through.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, as I get older my hearing is not as sharp as it used to 
>>>> be.  In fact I wear hearing aids when I need to have conversations 
>>>> - I can hear the voices well enough, but often cannot understand 
>>>> what I am hearing.  The hearing aids help some.  CW is not so hard 
>>>> to understand, but the tinnitus (ringing in my ears) often seems to 
>>>> resonate with the pitch I am listening to.  I operate CW every year 
>>>> at the K2UYH contest station, on 432 and up, and lately we have 
>>>> been getting some new younger operators - It is easy to tell that 
>>>> they copy the weak ones better than I do.  For a long time I was 
>>>> the best of the gang, but no more.
>>>>
>>>> In summary Digital mode EME has put the fun back into it for me.  I 
>>>> am able to have an inexpensive station and make lots of contacts on 
>>>> 2 meters.  If CW was my only option I most likely would not be on 
>>>> the air.
>>>>
>>>> Chuck I know I worked you numerous times back in the good old days 
>>>> on CW when you were WA6MGZ.  Unfortunately those days are gone.
>>>>
>>>> 73, Russ K2TXB
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Chuck Smallhouse [mailto:w7cs at theriver.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:18 PM
>>>> To: Russ K2TXB; 'Michael Barlow'
>>>> Cc: moon at moonbounce.info
>>>> Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW
>>>>
>>>> Russ, Ron, Ed et All,
>>>>
>>>> Comparing building an EME station today by hams goaded by "Instant 
>>>> Gratification" and difficult HOA restrictions, with those built a 
>>>> couple of decades or so ago, by incentivized HB'ng hams, is most 
>>>> certainly not the same.  This generation feels that they have to 
>>>> buy everything all ready for use, whether it's new or used.
>>>>
>>>> Antenna manufactures, such as M2 and most others, have increased 
>>>> their prices on their kits (yes they are kits, as you have to put 
>>>> them together and test them yourself) by at least five times from 
>>>> what they were in the late '80's or '90's.  This is not solely 
>>>> because of the increased prices of labor, materials and 
>>>> transportation, but also because of the sales and demand of those 
>>>> that need it Now, Now, Now, Ready To Go !
>>>>
>>>> Most hams in NA and EU live within driving distances of 
>>>> surplus/scrap or new metal dealers.  An SUV with a roof rack is all 
>>>> that's generally needed to bring the desired items home.  There are 
>>>> quite a few very good antenna
>>>> (Yagi) design sites on the Internet, and most give excellent 
>>>> construction details, even using
>>>> different sizes of materials.   The tools in an
>>>> average ham's workshop, are all that is required to build and 
>>>> assemble them.
>>>>    IMHO, the use of square aluminium tubing is much preferable, 
>>>> than the use of round, for 'H'  frames and Yagi booms, for obvious 
>>>> reasons.
>>>>
>>>> It used to be most of the fun, to design, plan and to collect and 
>>>> then build, over time, the items need to put together a successful operating
>>>> EME station.    Granted some items (even used)
>>>> are now much more expensive, because of the demand's rise in cost 
>>>> of new items.  However prices some of you have quoted are way above 
>>>> that I've seen in person, or even on the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to 
>>>> complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made 
>>>> many totally random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they with 
>>>> other well designed other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even 
>>>> completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and later a two Yagi 
>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>> To compare call sign recognition, via previous knowledge, to that 
>>>> via "Deep Search" is not even
>>>> worth intellectual arguing.   With CW, both
>>>> stations have to have complete audible copy of both call signs, 
>>>> reports and usually 73's.
>>>>
>>>> Now I know that this is difficult for "No Code Extras",  or even by 
>>>> those that haven't used CW in years, but the operating speeds are 
>>>> relatively quite slow, and most operators are very patient.  With 
>>>> practice, I maintain that a weak CW signal can be copied at very 
>>>> near the strength of that of a digital one , which has to be copied 
>>>> in a noisy (RF) computer and other noise
>>>> generating environment.   Today's detection
>>>> processing, by receivers using SDR techniques, make this difference 
>>>> even less !
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the "Dino's" build costs were/are considerably less than the 
>>>> "Buy" costs of todays EME station, but Ron's deep satisfaction of 
>>>> designing (and redesigning) and building it himself, is worth an 
>>>> awful lot !
>>>>
>>>> I even had a gentleman's bet with Wayne Overbeck, N6NB, when VUCC 
>>>> was first initiated,  that I could accomplish that award in less 
>>>> than one year, on 2M.
>>>>    This was when my QTH was about the furthest west possible in NA, 
>>>> and at least 80 of my needed Q's could not be easily made 
>>>> terrestrially  Ah Hah, but Wayne said, you will use an expensive 
>>>> EME station.  No I said, mine is mostly all HB, and cost 
>>>> considerably less than a competitive HF DX chasing station .
>>>>
>>>> BTW,  Wayne still owes me a Martini, for 2M VUCC # 13 .
>>>>
>>>> GL es 73,
>>>>
>>>> Chuck,  W7CS  ex WA6MGZ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> t 12:31 PM 8/15/2014, Russ K2TXB wrote:
>>>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>           boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05ED_01CFB89E.0A613500"
>>>>> Content-Language: en-us
>>>>>
>>>>> Ø  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) 
>>>>> EME must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have 
>>>>> assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I 
>>>>> suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital Hello 
>>>>> Ron. I do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter EME 
>>>>> station consists of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 KLM 
>>>>> 16LBX antennas (bought new in 1983 when they first came out, so 
>>>>> cheap by today’s standards), A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair (G5500 
>>>>> bought used for $250). Â I built the polarity rotation system 
>>>>> entirely from junk box parts, using an old TV rotator.  Also 
>>>>> needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for $50), some aluminum 
>>>>> tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite a bit of hand work 
>>>>> (free as I did not charge myself).  For the digital side, The 
>>>>> software was free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but 
>>>>> could have been bought for under $200), and I built my own 
>>>>> computer to rig interface (for under $30 in radio shack parts plus 
>>>>> junk box parts).  I don’t remember what the antennas cost but I 
>>>>> am guessing around $300 for the pair (maybe less).  So, for the whole digital system I spent less than $650 dollars ($850 if I had to buy the computer).
>>>>> Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME station 
>>>>> capable of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here I would 
>>>>> need at least four antennas (probably more).  So the cheap 
>>>>> aluminum tower is out.  I would need an H frame, a much heavier 
>>>>> duty (and separate) AZ and EL rotators, and a four way or multiple 
>>>>> power splitters, more phasing lines, connectors….  The extra cost 
>>>>> for all of that is more than the cost of my whole system. Â And 
>>>>> that would not even include the ability to change polarity (I can 
>>>>> not figure out a reasonable method of mechanically rotating 
>>>>> polarity of Yagis on an H frame, and XPOL Yagis are much much more 
>>>>> expensive to buy and to support.) All of the other parts of my 
>>>>> station (receiver, transmitter, feed lines, preamps, amplifier, 
>>>>> automatic rotator control system, connectors,
>>>>> etc.) are required for both systems and can be ignored.  Also it 
>>>>> is likely that most hams already have a computer in the shack so 
>>>>> that can be left out of the digital cost too.
>>>>> I suppose that my setup is among the cheapest around, but it is 
>>>>> still capable of generating more contacts in a year than I made in 
>>>>> 15 years on CW with 4 of the same kind of Yagis.
>>>>> Maybe you want to reconsider?
>>>>> 73, Russ K2TXB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow 
>>>>> <<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com>badl79 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Guy,
>>>>> I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME 
>>>>> must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have 
>>>>> assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I 
>>>>> suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital.
>>>>> As for required space, an effective 70cm antenna system can be 
>>>>> quite small. An HB9 (I regret to say that I am unable to remember 
>>>>> his entire
>>>>> call) had an absolutely superb signal, some years ago, while using 
>>>>> an antenna array that was erected on his apartment balcony. As I 
>>>>> recall, his receive capability was a match for his ufb transmit signal.
>>>>>                               73 de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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