[Moon] Deep Search IS cheating

Lars Pettersson sm4ive at telia.com
Sat Aug 23 06:14:22 CEST 2014


Sure we do what game we like to play,
  BUT when many of the cw ops prefere working  JT  just to be able to 
make some new DXCC it will have a negative trend on EME  becouse then  
the Dinos will quite after a while,  becouse there are non to work on 
CW.  we have seen this happend on 2 mtr and 432       soon on higher 
freq.  And after some time the JT ops will get borred by looking at the 
screen , and Voila no activity, well at least very little ,  Ok there 
will always be some newcomers , but it will be lonley even for them.
With facit in the hand  just sitt down and think how many of the former 
EMErs are QRV ???   compared to the days B4 JT Ok some have gone SK  but 
many many stoped.

It was interesting to see PA0BAT list of stations     many of the 
stations on that list are not QRV anymore..
Lars Sm4IVE


Howard Ling skrev 2014-08-22 23:34:
> Why don't we just stop this insane squabble, and get on with whatever "game you like to play"
> Just because someone is playing a different game, it doesn't mean the other game has to stop.
>
> Either way its still EME, and its getting activity on the bands while we still have the spectrum.
>
> Wake up guys, everyone in the world is trying to take our spectrum away from us...
>
> In considering our rights and use of the spectrum, they may just find out that its not that well used, and that the users act like a load of idiots, and can't even agree with each other... So they can give up that spectrum, as they don't deserve to have it anyway.
>
> So lets finally stop the squabbling and get on the bands any way we can, and show the world that we know what we are doing, and that is worth continuing with..!!
>
> Howard, G4CCH
>
>
>
>   
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moon [mailto:moon-bounces at moonbounce.info] On Behalf Of craig
> Sent: 22 August 2014 21:41
> To: moon at moonbounce.info; Peter Sundberg
> Subject: Re: [Moon] Deep Search IS cheating
>
> OK. Let's all calm down and try to understand the issue. I see both sides here.
>
> What is "cheating" ?
>
> Defined traditionally, it's breaking the rules in some way, generally w/o the knowledge or consent of the rest of the players.
>
> But wait, Joe Taylor CHANGED the rules. And the "EME game" was changed forever.
>
> So under the 'new' rules; are the various modes of digital operation really cheating ? I think not; those operators are simply playing by the new rules of the NEW game.
>
> The problem as I see it; and this has been mentioned before; is that the contests and/or award sponsoring organizations are either too backwards or too slow to recognize that THERE'S A NEW GAME IN TOWN. This seems to be where most of the complaints arise. It's "not fair" to one side or the other. But wait, it's NOT the same GAME !
>
> Are digital contacts somehow better or worse or 'not as valid' as CW contacts ?  No, it's a DIFFERENT GAME with DIFFERENT RULES. Is a SSB contact better than a CW contact ?  Are FM repeater contacts as 'valid' as SSB contacts ? These are all DIFFERENT GAMES with DIFFERENT RULES.
>
> When the ARRL and IARU and other organizations get their collective heads out of their..umm sand; only THEN will players in both games be satisfied.
>
> Craig,
> N8DJB
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Sundberg
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:01 PM
> To: moon at moonbounce.info
> Subject: [Moon] Deep Search IS cheating
>
> Fellow Moonbouncers,
>
> Many moons ago a famous scientist, Joe Taylor K1JT, decided that all CW EME operators were/are cheating, so why not create a software that is cheating.
>
> So he did, he came up with a cheating software that he said had 4-6dB mor "sensitivity". People bought his bollocks and DXCC awards for 2m have been flooding out from the ARRL headquarters ever since.
>
> Higher bands will follow the trend as there are now new protocols in the JT-package that are cheating, some of them in an somewhat different way than Deep Search. However, still cheating to make contacts.
>
> The decision to create a cheating routine in JT65 was totally outrageous, and an pure insult to operators who work EME by the established rules. One of Joe Taylors reason for creating the cheating routine was that "modern operators don't have the patience to wait for the fully received message to appear on the screen" as it did in JT44.
>
> Since the beginning, Bernd DF2ZC has been acting as K1JT's attorney, defending his cheating Master by passing on the myth that all CW EME operators cheat. In his opinion Deep Search all "legal". Of course Bernd is of that opinion, it quickly got him DXCC on 2m. Fame...
>
> But let me tell you, his Master and the inventor of Deep Search is guilty as charged, Deep Search is cheating, big time. No matter what his attorneys say. It should never have been accepted. The Magistrates' Court of CW has decided that this is the case.
>
> Yes Bernd, the earth if flat, and the sun is circling around us until it pops under the edge, that is for sure, I see this every day.
>
> And CW is King! Of course! Any callsign, any message, just listen and decode. Mr S Morse sure knew what he was doing. He was not a cheater, by any means. He gave us the king of tools to communicate with.
>
> ZUT!
>
> 73
> Peter SM2CEW
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 08:45 2014-08-22 , Bernd DF2ZC wrote:
>> Dear Russ, > >I am aware I run the risk of warming up this soup again
>> but
> there is >one paragraph in your correct statements I can't leave without
>> comment: > >>I disagree about the comparison of knowing or having a
>> list
> of stations >> versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how these lists are used. >> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a partial call >> and grab the list for the band and look through it for the 3 letters they >> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they answer the station sending >> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep search, and in fact is often >> less reliable in terms of figuring out the correct call. > >This use of a list is not at all the same as the ds process in JT65. >While people using lists only copied for instance "K" and "TX" they >then guess that it is K2TXB since that c/s is in their list but have >no real basis for a guess. It could have been also an off-list
>> callsign such as "W4KTX" for example. > >As you know, JT65 however does
>> a
> correlation of the signal form in the >noise with calculated signal forms based on possible combinations with >callsigns in call3.txt. It then displays the result of that >correlation with a confidence value of the result. It is no guess as >above but a mathemactial method to compare two signals. The operator >is then left to decide whether he trusts the result of that >correlation or not, based on the confidence value attached to that
>> result. > >Therefore the JT65 DS method is not to be compated to the
>> theat
> guess >into the blue some or many used in the pre WSJT era. > >Now I'm looking forward to the flaming by the handful of CWisKINGS >that of course what I wrote here is wrong, including the notorious >personally insulting comments of someone in HB9. For the latter >applies the rule "if you get personal it shows you have no point >factwise". > >73 Bernd DF2ZC > > > >
>> 2014-08-16 6:06 GMT+02:00, Russ K2TXB <k2txb at dxcc.com>: >> Hello Chuck.
> Well but you know that I operated CW EME on two meters for >> years with a
> 4 Yagi station.  And yes, I made contacts even with  just one >> antenna.
> But tell me, with a station like that could you contact other >> stations with same size antenna - maybe, once in a great while.  But I do it >> all the time.  I have spent many hours on CW with my current 2 Yagi station >> trying to work the few stations that I can copy in the ATP's.  Those >> stations are all 'bug guns'.  But most of them cannot hear me well enough to >> get my call.  In four hours I am lucky if I make one contact.  Many of those >> EU big guns are running more power that we are allowed over here.  So I hear >> them but they cannot copy me.  And I run a keyer and send very well-spaced >> and accurate CW (usually).  Calling CQ is not even worth my while if they >> cannot copy me when I am on their frequency. >>
>>> Contrast all that with getting on for a couple of hours and making 2
>>> or three contacts on must any evening.  I can easily do that with
>>> WSJT on 2 meters.  It is just not worth operating CW without a much
>>> better antenna system - meaning more money, more problems with the
>>> township, Neighbors,
> and >> XYL, more difficult maintenance, etc. >> >> As far as the costs are concerned, I deliberately quoted prices that were a >> little high, because I did not want anyone to think I was exaggerating how >> little I spent.
> Yes, I have built my own antennas too, but it is a lot of >> work and time that I could spend improving other areas of my station or just >> operating.  But buy or build, spend little or spend a lot, it will always
>>> cost a lot more to put up a quality CW EME station. >> >> I disagree
> about the comparison of knowing or having a list of stations >> versus WSJT deep search.  I am very familiar with how these lists are used. >> I have sat and watched operators of some big stations hear a partial call >> and grab the list for the band and look through it for the 3 letters they >> got, until the find a call that fits.  Then they answer the station sending
>>> OOO.  That is exactly the same thing as deep search, and in fact is
> often >> less reliable in terms of figuring out the correct call. >> >> You
> said: "There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to >> complete CW EME contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made many totally >> random QSOs with single Yagi stations, and they with other well designed >> other single or two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even completed 2M WAS, via CW, >> using a single and later a two Yagi system." >> >> Yes it can be done, buy how many years did it take him?  I worked WAS on 2m >> CW with 4 yogis and it took me about 15 years (5 years for the last state). >> If I wanted to do it today I bet I could do it in a year (excepting states
>>> with no activity).  When conditions are excellent it is sometimes
>>> easy
> to >> make CW contacts with a small station, but waiting for those conditions >> takes a lot of the fun out of it.  Hours listening to white noise is not >> really what it is all about, for me. >> >> Another factor is the noise levels we have today.  Very lucky is the EME >> station who can hear more noise from a 50 ohm resistor than from his 2 meter >> antenna!  I used to be able to do that all the time, but in the past 10 >> years, almost never.  Often the noise from my antennas is 3 or even 6 dB >> above the resistor.  Under those conditions CW is useless, digital gets >> through. >> >> Finally, as I get older my hearing is not as sharp as it used to be.  In >> fact I wear hearing aids when I need to have conversations - I can hear the >> voices well enough, but often cannot understand what I am hearing.  The >> hearing aids help some.  CW is not so hard to understand, but the tinnitus >> (ringing in my ears) often seems to resonate with the pitch I am listening >> to.  I operate CW every year at the K2UYH contest station, on 432 and up, >> and lately we have been getting some new younger operators - It is easy to >> tell that they copy the weak ones better than I do.  For a long time I was >> the best of the gang, but no more. >> >> In summary Digital mode EME has put the fun back into it for me.  I am able >> to have an inexpensive station and make lots of contacts on 2 meters.  If CW >> was my only option I most likely would not be on the air. >> >> Chuck I know I worked you numerous times back in the good old days on CW >> when you were WA6MGZ.  Unfortunately those days are gone. >> >> 73, Russ K2TXB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From:
> Chuck Smallhouse [mailto:w7cs at theriver.com] >> Sent: Friday, August 15,
> 2014 8:18 PM >> To: Russ K2TXB; 'Michael Barlow' >> Cc:
> moon at moonbounce.info >> Subject: Re: [Moon] The Swedish 4Th 432 & UP EME meeting CW >> >> Russ, Ron, Ed et All, >> >> Comparing building an EME station today by hams goaded by "Instant >> Gratification" and difficult HOA restrictions, with those built a couple of >> decades or so ago, by incentivized HB'ng hams, is most certainly not the >> same.  This generation feels that they have to buy everything all ready for >> use, whether it's new or used. >> >> Antenna manufactures, such as M2 and most others, have increased their >> prices on their kits (yes they are kits, as you have to put them together >> and test them yourself) by at least five times from what they were in the >> late '80's or '90's.  This is not solely because of the increased prices of >> labor, materials and transportation, but also because of the sales and >> demand of those that need it Now, Now, Now, Ready To Go ! >> >> Most hams in NA and EU live within driving distances of surplus/scrap or new >> metal dealers.  An SUV with a roof rack is all that's generally needed to >> bring the desired items home.  There are quite a few very good antenna >> (Yagi) design sites on the Internet, and most give excellent construction >> details, even
> using >> different sizes of materials.   The tools in an >> average ham's
> workshop, are all that is required to build and assemble them. >>  IMHO, the use of square aluminium tubing is much preferable, than the use >> of round, for 'H'  frames and Yagi booms, for obvious reasons. >> >> It used to be most of the fun, to design, plan and to collect and then >> build, over time, the items need to put together a successful operating >> EME
> station.    Granted some items (even used) >> are now much more expensive,
> because of the demand's rise in cost of new >> items.  However prices some of you have quoted are way above that I've seen >> in person, or even on the Internet. >> >> There is no need to have a large, even four Yagi, station to complete CW EME >> contacts.  In the "Good Ole Dino Days",  I made many totally random QSOs >> with single Yagi stations, and they with other well designed other single or >> two Yagi stations.  PA0JMV even completed 2M WAS, via CW, using a single and >> later a two Yagi system. >>
>>> To compare call sign recognition, via previous knowledge, to that via
> "Deep >> Search" is not even >> worth intellectual arguing.   With CW, both
>>> stations have to have complete audible copy of both call signs,
>>> reports
> and >> usually 73's. >> >> Now I know that this is difficult for "No Code Extras",  or even by those >> that haven't used CW in years, but the operating speeds are relatively quite >> slow, and most operators are very patient.  With practice, I maintain that a >> weak CW signal can be copied at very near the strength of that of a digital >> one , which has to be copied in a noisy (RF) computer and other noise >> generating environment.
> Today's detection >> processing, by receivers using SDR techniques, make this difference even >> less ! >> >> Yes, the "Dino's" build costs were/are
>>> considerably less than the "Buy" costs of todays EME station, but
>>> Ron's
> deep >> satisfaction of designing (and redesigning) and building it himself, is >> worth an awful lot ! >> >> I even had a gentleman's bet with Wayne Overbeck, N6NB, when VUCC was first >> initiated,  that I could accomplish that award in less than one year, on 2M. >>  This was when my QTH was about the furthest west possible in NA, and at >> least 80 of my needed Q's could not be easily made terrestrially  Ah Hah, >> but Wayne said, you will use an expensive EME station.  No I said, mine is >> mostly all HB, and cost considerably less than a competitive HF DX chasing >> station . >> >> BTW,  Wayne still owes me a Martini, for 2M VUCC # 13 . >>
>>> GL es 73, >> >> Chuck,  W7CS  ex WA6MGZ >> >> >> t 12:31 PM
>>> 8/15/2014,
> Russ K2TXB wrote: >>>Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05ED_01CFB89E.0A613500" >>>Content-Language:
> en-us >>> >>>Ø  I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW
> (dino) EME >>>must be more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have >>>assembled reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I
>>>> suspect is a lower cost than anyone has done with digital Hello Ron.
>>>> I do not understand why you think this.  My 2 meter EME station
>>>> consists of a used 25 foot aluminum tower (free), 2 KLM 16LBX
>>>> antennas (bought new in 1983 when they first came out, so cheap by
>>>> today’s
> standards), >>>A Yaesu EL/AL rotator pair (G5500 bought used for $250).  I built the >>>polarity rotation system entirely from junk box parts, using an old TV >>>rotator.  Also needed a 2 way splitter (bought used for $50), some >>>aluminum tubing to make the supporting masts, and quite a bit of hand >>>work (free as I did not charge myself).  For the digital side, The >>>software was free, The computer was free (cast off from work, but could >>>have been bought for under $200), and I built my own computer to rig >>>interface (for under $30 in radio shack parts plus junk box parts).  I >>>don’t remember what the antennas cost but I am guessing around $300 >>>for the pair (maybe less).  So, for the whole digital system I spent >>>less than $650 dollars ($850 if I had to buy the computer). >>>Contrast that to putting together a comparable 2 meter EME station >>>capable of making a similar number of CW contacts.  Here I would need >>>at least four antennas (probably more).  So the cheap aluminum tower >>>is out.  I would need an H frame, a much heavier duty (and separate) >>>AZ and EL rotators, and a four way or multiple power splitters, more >>>phasing lines, connectors….  The extra cost for all of that is more >>>than the cost of my whole system.  And that would not even include the >>>ability to change polarity (I can not figure out a reasonable method of >>>mechanically rotating polarity of Yagis on an H frame, and XPOL Yagis >>>are much much more expensive to buy and to
> support.) All of the other >>>parts of my station (receiver, transmitter, feed lines, preamps, >>>amplifier, automatic rotator control system, connectors, >>>etc.) are required for both systems and can be ignored. Also it is >>>likely that most hams already have a computer in the shack so that can >>>be left out of the digital cost too. >>>I suppose that my setup is among the cheapest around, but it is still >>>capable of generating more contacts in a year than I made in 15 years >>>on CW with 4 of the same kind of Yagis. >>>Maybe you want to reconsider? >>>73, Russ K2TXB >>> >>> >>>On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Michael Barlow
>>>> <<mailto:badl79 at yahoo.com>badl79 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>Hi Guy, >>>I
> respectfully disagree with your suggestion that CW (dino) EME must be
>>>> more expensive than digital operation. Some of us have assembled
>>>> reasonably effective 2m and 70cm CW stations at what I suspect is a
>>>> lower cost than anyone has done with digital. >>>As for required
>>>> space,
> an effective 70cm antenna system can be quite >>>small. An HB9 (I regret to say that I am unable to remember his entire >>>call) had an absolutely superb signal, some years ago, while using an >>>antenna array that was erected on his apartment balcony. As I recall, >>>his receive capability
> was a match for his ufb transmit signal. >>>                             73
> de "a dino", Ron  n4gjv >>> >>> >>>
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-- 
I only work real EME no chatts no Bagpipes
CW is King!!!!




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